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Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

I thought it would be nice to have a Guild signature, so I came up with this:


 


I have one for Guild Members and one for Guild Masters:

 



And of course one for the Grand Master:


 

 

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November 21, 2013 at 5:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
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Posts: 381

*Ahem* pahrah refers to physical size.

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November 21, 2013 at 7:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

My reference is the Talashar fragment: "ón renava pa[ra]... Tælæšar x’v..."

Unless that means "the obese Master Talashar" :D

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November 22, 2013 at 5:33 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
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Posts: 381

pahrah there is still purely speculation, however.

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November 22, 2013 at 12:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Khreestrefah
Member
Posts: 96
Atrus alludes to the "pahrahth" of the divinity he prays to -- clearly not about physical size
November 22, 2013 at 9:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
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Posts: 381

Clearly, any being capable of being everywhere in the Great Tree of Possibilities all at once would have to be very large. For example, one of the lines in a song we sing at Church goes 'You're wider than the universe'.

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November 23, 2013 at 9:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Khreestrefah
Member
Posts: 96

That is exactly my point.  When I say to God "You're wider than the universe" I do not mean in physical size because by definition the "universe" is the widest physicality there is.  This English sentence shows that "wide" and indeed any word that we think of as basically about physicality can be used to talk about non-physical things.  For example we could say someone is "large-souled" to characterize a spiritual aspect of their nature, or say the have a "large mind" to refer to mental ability.


The same versatility applies to German "groß" and Spanish "grande".  It might not apply to D'ni "pahrah" but we cannot just assert the this word applies only to physical size without some evidence of such an unusual semantic limitation.  And it seems to me to go against other things we know about D'ni language, like the fact that they use numbers (a scale of 1 to 25) to qualify the degree of any attribute, physical, mental, or spiritual.

November 23, 2013 at 3:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

So nahvah pahrah is meant to refer to my vastness in masteryness? I'm sorry, but I can easily see that being misconstrued as implying I'm fat.

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November 23, 2013 at 5:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

Well then, here's a non-speculative one:


I've also added a slimmer version:

http://guildoflinguists.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=15240719

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November 24, 2013 at 6:10 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
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Posts: 381

Well nahvah gahro is non-speculative.

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November 24, 2013 at 7:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Khreestrefah
Member
Posts: 96

I doubt very much that that D'ni would use exactly the same euphemism ("large" for "fat") that our insecure, image-obsessed, politically-correct English-speaking culture does.  

But if nahvah pahrah does mean "fat master" then apparently nahvah gahro would mean "five-times fatter master" -- since we know that pahrah and gahro basically differ in degree not in kind, cf. tahvo, pahrtahvo, gahrtahvo. 

November 26, 2013 at 2:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Khrees, I know full-well that D'ni wouldn't translate pahrah as 'fat', but some Anglophone might...


So does that mean that the Gahrohevtee are written five times larger than rather large normal text?

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November 26, 2013 at 4:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

Maybe it means "ultra bold font".

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November 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Khreestrefah
Member
Posts: 96

My intuition is that gahrohev does indeed fit the paradigm seen in tahvo, pahrtahvo, gahrtahvo.  But again the quality being compared here is not something physically measurable but something abstract, what we might characterize as semantic complexity.  Note that this is what a typical English speaker might be referring to when he says something like "don't use such big words."  There is a very inexact correlation between the semantic complexity and the physical "size" of a spoken or written word on which this metaphoric use of big is ultimately based, and the correlation may even be closer in D'ni; but the point of the D'ni use of the mathematical metaphor is probably that gahrohevtee are (as we might say) an order of magnitude greater than ordinary hevtee pahrah.


Of course we do not actually need to go this far afield to find corroboration of Korov'ev's insight into the significance of the phrase nahvah pahrah.  Note by the way that this reading of a portion of the Talashahr fragment is not pure speculation: the letter following pah is partially visible and has to be either r, e or ay, of which r is by far the most likely from a phonotactic perspective; and so the word would from a syntactic perspective be either pahrah or pahrkhen, of which given the context I think pahrah is the more likely candidate.


Now consider what we actually know about the D'ni guild system.  The number of guilds has varied historically, but from the evidence we have it seems to have fluctuated in the range of 20 to 30 guilds, and therefor the same number of "grand masters".  Above these in the hierarchy were five "lords" themselves apparently usually promoted from the grand masters of the guilds.  I place these terms in quotes because they seem to have been chosen to translate D'ni terms on the basis of their historical evocations within English (medieval) culture and so not necessarily because of a close linguistic correlation with the D'ni terms.  Rather it seems to me that the approximate correlation between the relative "mastership" within the guilds of a lord (one fifth responsibility for the whole system) vs. a grand master (averaging roughly one twenty-fifth) and the relative size of gahrtahvo (one fifth of a yahr) vs. pahrtahvo (one twenty-fifth of a yahr) is probably not just a coincidence.

December 9, 2013 at 7:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Or that word could be some word we don't have yet. D'ni is not only the few hundred root words we know + derivations thereof.

*Thinks about it* Your first point isn't very convincing, since metaphors don't necessarily correlate across languages, your second point isn't convincing for the reason I gave above, but your third point is very interesting. Given though the current meanings of those two words, I would therefore say that the original meaning of the roots gahr and pahr are fairly equivalent, with gahr being an order of magnitude greater.


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December 9, 2013 at 8:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Orz
Member
Posts: 15

I have to disagree with the Grand Master on all three counts.


1.) While in general metaphors don't correlate across languages, the use of "big" to metaphorically mean "important" is pretty consistent (citation: Metaphor in Educational Discourse, p.24, or possibly Grady (1999)'s A typology of motivation for conceptual metaphor: correlation vs. resemblance which I don't have access to)—and, as Khreestrefah has pointed out, attested in D'ni (as pahrahth).


2.) Although the set of D'ni words is not usefully finite, the obscured word is (by definition) more likely to be a common word than an uncommon one; likewise any word whose definition we have is more likely to be a common word than an uncommon one (especially when, as in the case of "big", that word is on the Swadesh list). That alone is probably not enough to make it more likely to be a word we know, but it's still a solid push towards it, evidentially.


3.) Leaving aside the nitpick that it's only about seven-tenths of an order of magnitude greater (i.e., ln 5 ÷ ln 10), I think it's a bit early to conclude that pahrah and gahro have any more formal or fixed relation than do the English words big and huge—or, for that matter, the D'ni words b'bree, b’rish, and b'rigahsehn. I agree that the factor-of-five difference isn't a complete coincidence, but I rather think the quintization (sic) in both cases arose simply from the well-known fact that the D'ni liked fives. Having made the division, they would in both cases naturally press the most convenient words into service. It's certainly possible that pahr- and gahr- had semantics along the lines of modern deca- and hecto-, but I don't think there's nearly enough evidence to conclude that so firmly yet.

December 9, 2013 at 10:38 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

KathTheDragon at November 23, 2013 at 5:39 PM

So nahvah pahrah is meant to refer to my vastness in masteryness? I'm sorry, but I can easily see that being misconstrued as implying I'm fat.

The irony, of course, is that nobody misconstrued it until you did. And it's not like you're any safer with gahro, now :D

 

 

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December 10, 2013 at 11:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Because, Korov, we all here are somewhat educated in D'ni, and have the benefit of this discussion. But I can imagine someone completely new looking up pahrah, seeing 'large', and then invoke that immaturity that (as far as I can tell) lingers on far longer than it should. Especially in the younger end of the fanbase.


Well, that I was not aware of, but I concede the point.


Having read a lot of discussion on things like the Swadesh list, I have concluded that it's a very bad idea to say what the most common words are across languages, since it doesn't work that way. What the Swadesh list (and others like it) are good for is telling you what more basic concepts are. Also, guinea pig.


I'm not claiming any such relationship, but consider 'big' and 'huge'. Which one is larger? Obviously 'huge'. It's some orders of magnitude greater than 'big' (and by this, I do not mean absolute magnitude, but rather the magnitudes distinguished by the language). The same applies to pahrah and gahro.

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December 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

Then I guess the best option is to just drop the rank.

However, the signature now looks a bit unbalanced to me, so I tried a couple modifications; my favourite is the one with the D'ni transliteration.




(I'm using postimage for now, to avoid adding stuff to the site while it's on the move)

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December 10, 2013 at 3:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

It'll be alot of work to move all the assets anyway, and one or two more images won't make much difference. Chances are I'll just download the files en masse. Oh, and it'll still take probably several months by myself.

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December 10, 2013 at 5:32 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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