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Forum Home > The Language Room > Yet Another Post about D'ni romanizations

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

However, I tried to include a few notes that are not often found elsewhere. There're probably some imprecisions, so corrections are welcomed.


Let's start with some distinctions: the general term for spelling D'ni (or any non-latin language) in latin letters is romanization. Romanizations can be roughly divided in transliterations, in which each D'ni letter is represented with a single latin letter, and each latin letter correspond to a single D'ni letter; and transcriptions, in which some D'ni letters can be represented with two latin letters. Transcriptions sacrifice unambiguity to an (arguably) easer-to-read way of writing, to anglophones at least.


The most common romanization of D'ni, the one used by the DRC, is known as Old Transliteration Standard (OTS) - though it's actually a transcription. It only uses the basic latin letter, marking specifics consonants and vowels with an 'h', and is based on english phonetics. Note that the aboundance of 'h' leads to quite a few ambiguities (e.g. ayoheek: ayo|heek vs ayoh|eek).

.khahpo rehoortahv tso gorahyanoy kodomahdhoehnij chilehsh mehrthzu riwaiehts b'fahsee


Kh'reestrefah's D'ni Dictionary uses a slightly modified OTS, in which 'i' is spelled 'í':

... ríwaiehts b'fahsee


The second most common romanization is the New Transliteration Standard (NTS) - this time a true transliteration. Devised by the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, it uses special letters and accented vowels, but it's often considered difficult to write. Which letters? Well, keep in mind that Unicode wasn't much in use at the time, so the ones available in the Windows-1252 encoding were used, hence the presence of 'š' but not of 'č'.

.xapo rehúrtav co gorayænó kodomaðoenij çileš merþzu ráwéec b'fasí


Both romanizations, when read correctly, sound the same. To describe the sounds of D'ni language, linguists would use the more precise International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA):

/ xɑpɔ rɛhʊ:rtɑv cɔ gɔrajænɔɪ kɔdɔmɑðɔɛnɪʤ ʧɪlɛʃ mɛrθzʊ raɪweɪɛc bʔfasi: /


RAWA, the D'ni historian and linguist, uses a non-accented mix of OTS and NTS which is also how D'ni fonts are usually encoded:

.kapo rehUrtav xo gorayånO KoDomadoenij cileS merTzu rIwAex b'fasE


Lastly, some may observe that OTS looks similar to the GOST 16876-71 standard, a common romanization system for russian; this is how D'ni would be written using an adaptation of the GOST standard:

.xapo rehuurtav co gorayaenoy kodomadhoenij chilesh merthzu rayweyec b'fasiy


Resources

October 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Quibbles with your IPA: NTS <c> is IPA /ts/; <ú> is more probably /uː/; <a> is /ɑ/; <æ> is /a/; <o> is /o/ in hiatus, likely word-finally and sometimes morpheme-finally; <j> could well be /ʒ~ɣ/; <'> has complex rules which make it /ə/ in this environment.


Also, I propose the RTS (revised transcription standard) which is a variant on OTS, which respells various letters. Thus:

.khahpo rehoortahv tso gorahyanoi kodomahdhoenij chilesh merthzu raiweiets b'fahsee

 

--

Moula KI: 00005310
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October 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Talashar
Member
Posts: 30

At least as I've seen the terms used, the difference between transliteration and transcription is that transliteration is a mapping from one system of writing to another, while transcription is any written representation of a sample of language.  So a transliteration of D'ni would leave stress unmarked, just as in D'ni writing, but we could devise a transcription system that marked it.


The NTS actually goes back to the old Guild of Linguists.  Not knowing much about character sets, I'd always wondered why it didn't use č for c, an odd asymmetry in an otherwise very well-designed transliteration.

 

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Talashar Geltahn; Ki 183867 An overview of D'ni grammar | My books

October 12, 2013 at 10:18 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

transliterate (verb): write or print (a letter or word) using the closest corresponding letters of a different alphabet or language.


transcription (noun): a form in which a speech sound or a foreign character is represented.


So, in terms of writing D'ni in Roman characters, strictly speaking, both are appropriate, but to include speech information like intonation and stress (provided they are unmarked in the native script), you must use a transcription.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
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tumblr: kaththedragon

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October 13, 2013 at 6:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Also, as it stands, the NTS can be written with keyboard characters in most cases, but accented vowels require AltGr, and the other letters require Alt codes. č does not have an Alt code (trust me, I checked).

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
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tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 13, 2013 at 6:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

I never get the IPA right :) So this is how it should be?

/ xɑpo rɛhu:rtɑv tso gɔrɑjanoɪ kɔdɔmɑðɔɛnɪʒ tʃɪlɛʃ mɛrθzʊ rɑɪweɪɛts bəfɑsi: /


NTS goes back at least as early as 2000; Unicode started to be supported since Windows NT, I think, but didn't become widespread until quite a few years later, so for best support it was logical to only use the commonly available characters. Idiosyncratic, but functional.

October 13, 2013 at 10:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

Admittedly transcription is confusing; what I meant to point out is that the difference between the two standards is not merely stylistical. OTS is more familiar and usable in the KI chat, but it feels sloppy when it comes to discussing the language.

October 13, 2013 at 10:18 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

/ xɑpo rɛhu:rtɑv tso gɔrɑjanɔɪ kɔdɔmɑðo.ɛnɪʒ tʃɪlɛʃ mɛrθzʊ rɑɪwɛɪ.ɛts bəfɑsi: / (Full stops are used in IPA to separate vowels in hiatus)


Yeah, OTS is really bad in linguistic discussions, and ideally, we would use the actual D'ni characters.

Edit: Ok, we can't use them.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 13, 2013 at 10:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Talashar
Member
Posts: 30

The characters seem to work for me: D'nE


My tentative phonetic transcription looks slightly different in ways that point to to our limited knowledge of D'ni phonetics.

[xɑpo ɾɛhuɾtɑv tso goɾɑjænoi̯ kodomɑðoɛnɪdʒ tʃɪlɛʃ mɛɾθzʌ ɾai̯wei̯ɛts bəfɑsi]

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Talashar Geltahn; Ki 183867 An overview of D'ni grammar | My books

October 13, 2013 at 7:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Since we know so little, go to the thread I've just made for the purpose of discussing D'ni phonetics.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

.kapo rehUrtav xo gorayånO KoDomadoenij cileS merTzu rIwAex b'fasE

:D

October 15, 2013 at 3:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

How are you inserting the characters?

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 15, 2013 at 4:55 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Talashar
Member
Posts: 30

The far right button above the posting box opens up the HTML so you can change the font. :)

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Talashar Geltahn; Ki 183867 An overview of D'ni grammar | My books

October 15, 2013 at 9:01 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

I tried that, but it wouldn't take. What exact HTML are you using?

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 16, 2013 at 12:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

I typed "< font face="Dnifont" > ... < /font >", but had to click Edit and save again to get it recognized.

October 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Ah... K. Cos I have a style set up on the pages I need to use D'ni on, so I just copy-paste that everywhere.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 16, 2013 at 3:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

dgelessus
Member
Posts: 22

I'm not seeing it - you probably have to have the font installed for that to work. Which, unfortunately, is not possible on iPads.

Oh, and the Guild Dictionary doesn't have correct D'ni on my iPad either, it just falls back to some standard font. On my PC it works since I have all variations of D'ni fonts installed there ;)

--

Hey, this is actually HTML!

October 17, 2013 at 3:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Yeah, that's the one limitation.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 17, 2013 at 7:49 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Korov’ev
Member
Posts: 160

Then I suggest sticking to D'ni Script LM, as this is exactly the situation it was designed for: to show the actual alphabet or, if the font is missing, to show its NTS equivalent.

October 17, 2013 at 4:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply

KathTheDragon
Site Owner
Posts: 381

Precisely what I've done on the site.

--

Moula KI: 00005310
DI KI: 00205116
deviantART: kathaveara
tumblr: kaththedragon

Grand Master of the Guild of Linguists


October 17, 2013 at 8:55 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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